Being a Good Christian Entails Obeying All Authority, Including Evil Authority

9/3/2022

Over the past week or so, I have considered writing an addendum piece to my Altar-Civilization is Over post from a month or so ago -- you know, the one that got me branded as an Enemy of Christianity.

Lucky for me, I no longer need to write that post because a fine fellow named Scoot over at the Orthosphere has done an absolutely bang-up job outlining exactly why the Altar-Civilization model is finished. Granted, that wasn’t his intention, but hey. Allow me to present the first paragraph of Scoot’s penetrating post (bold added):

The virtue everyone loves to hate is obedience. Obedience is easy when it is easy, but there’s a common misconception that having a bad authority exempts us from the duty of obedience. As the late great Zippy Catholic used to say, it is a fallacy of modernity to confuse the question of which authority is just with the question of whether authority in general is just. There’s a fundamental truth hiding behind this misconception that we as fallen humans are often afraid of: That all authority comes from God. Not just good authority – all authority.

Got that? All authority comes from God. And yes, that includes authority that is openly and blatantly opposed to God and Creation.

Simply put -- we are obligated to obey evil with humility because . . . uh . . . that's what God wants. Any refusal to obey evil authority demonstrates a lack of obedience to God. Oh yeah, and a lack of trust in God, who might be trying to teach us a lesson.

Kristor is quick to emphasize this point in a comment:

The thing that it is hard for us to understand about Omnipotence and his Providence is that *even the evil that evil men do* redounds at last to our all joint and universal salvation. All that we need do to take advantage of this fact is to ally ourselves to that salvation. How? Dunno. Just do it. Get on with it, in fear and trembling, lest you muck it up by your own foolishness.

He’s right. That is difficult to understand.

Look, I could go on and dissect the entire piece, but I don't see much point in it. If what Scoot and Kristor are pushing at the Orthosphere these days resonates with your understanding of Christianity, then by all means, knock yourself out.

But I wonder, if we are obligated to obey all authority, including evil authority, then what purpose do reactionary sites like the Orthosphere serve?

After all, if obedience to all authority, including evil authority, is part of God’s Omnipotence and Providence, then Christian Reaction against anti-Christian, evil authority is nothing more than blatant rebellion against Divine Omnipotence and Providence.

Why bother writing anything at all? Why not just become passive and inert and rest assured that everything is in God’s Omnipotent hands?

To sum up: If Christians are obligated to obey the Altar because the Altar is God, and the Altar bends the knee to an unjust King, and the unjust King is opposed to God and is openly working to destroy civilization and ensure the eternal damnation of everyone, then the Altar-Civilization Model of Christianity Proper is finished, and serious Christians must – and I mean must -- begin looking elsewhere for their salvation.

If you happen to disagree, then by all means “stay on the path”.

You are free, after all.

43 Comments

Loïc Simond

9/3/2022 22:52:41

Just to suggest, if you did not come across it, Terrence Malick's "response" with A Hidden Life:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJXmdY4lVR0

Thank you so much for your work.

Francis Berger

9/3/2022 23:17:16

@ Loic - Thanks. I haven't seen that film, but it looks interesting.

Steve

9/3/2022 23:00:59

Can't be true and leave Jesus sin-free.

The simple one is His upbraiding of the Pharisees, but by this logic, driving the moneychangers from the temple would have been even more sinful.

Yes, you can try to get around it by saying the temple authorities were lesser authorities than Jesus, but we still confront the reality that those were the extant authorities, as we understand the term.

If you are comfortable with branding Jesus a sinner, then obeying authorities makes perfect sense, and Nuremburg was a grave injustice. "Just following orders" should have been a virtue, not a capital crime.

9/3/2022 23:23:13

@ Steve - Solid points but I'm certain those who espouse the "obedience to all authority" mantra will find ways to argue around such points, which just goes to show how mortifying that line of Christian thinking has become.

9/3/2022 23:50:25

Could be. I have not run into many like that who could explain either why they were comfortable with Jesus being a sinner, or that He disobeyed the temple priests, and thus did not submit to earthly authorities. Either way, sinner.

It has been marginally successful (heck, a single person saved is worth it, right?) but most manage to just storm out in cognitive dissonance.

9/4/2022 02:34:40

True. It is rare that someone will consider the implications of the fact that Jesus did not do as his pat theology says He should have done. I've pushed on the cog-dis from time to time (mostly with family members or friends that I truly care a lot about) but it is rarely effective.

Bruce Charlton

9/3/2022 23:46:30

This stuff seems to be an aspect of things coming to a point. We are being forced to make personal discernment - and if we refuse to take up this responsibility, then we have rejected Christ.

I have often said, and here is another instance, that this style of Christianity comes across as implicitly Muslim. If obedience to omnipotence is the essence, Muslims do this much better than Christians, and their metaphysical theology is more coherent at justifying this.

If, on the other hand, one wants to follow Jesus, then (as of Now) primary obedience must deliberately be set aside.

9/4/2022 09:55:16

@ Bruce - "If, on the other hand, one wants to follow Jesus, then (as of Now) primary obedience must deliberately be set aside."

This is what is sorely lacking in some Christians. They truly do seem to want a religion that is little more than warmed over Islam -- blind, humble, unquestioning obedience to an almighty god and all of that god's supposed external manifestations. The problem is, even traditional Christian theology renders this desire incoherent.

"We are being forced to make personal discernment - and if we refuse to take up this responsibility, then we have rejected Christ."

Yes, that's it! It encapsulates what it means to be a Christian, especially today! If you refuse the responsibility of personal discernment, you have rejected Christ!

So clear. So simple. Yet so difficult for some to accept.

Ann K.

9/4/2022 00:54:10

So as long as it looks like a sheep, you don’t mind if it’s really a wolf?

9/4/2022 09:56:12

@ Ann K. - Ah, that's good!

9/5/2022 14:50:20

And as long as you’re as innocent as a dove, you ignore the requirement to be as wise as a serpent?

Luke

9/4/2022 03:02:06

That was a very silly read.

9/4/2022 09:56:45

@ Luke - I hope you are referring to the Orthosphere post, not mine!

9/4/2022 19:24:20

Definitely not yours.

Lady Mermaid link

9/4/2022 03:06:48

Romans 13 has recently used by famous Evangelical church leaders to browbeat Christians into supporting the system. There is a good article explaining God's purpose behind establishing government and what constitutes a legitimate authority.

https://neociceroniantimes.wordpress.com/2022/01/11/what-romans-131-7-really-means/

Legitimate authority promotes good and restrains evil. Of course, no government on the face of this earth has ever ruled perfectly. Nevertheless, most authorities tried to seek the good, however imperfectly. We are to obey these authorities unless they ask us to sin.

Today, a very strong case can be made that the majority of modern governments are completely illegitimate by the standard of Romans 13. They proudly enforce vile types of evil while actively opposing the good. These authorities do not deserve any respect or allegiance. They are enemies of God, not agents of His justice.

9/4/2022 10:01:24

@ Lady Mermaid - Spot on. When it comes to Scripture, the first thing I do is consider motivation. Why is the motivation behind an individual referring to Scripture? Unfortunately, the motivations for using Scripture are not always good. Many use Scripture as a means through which to rationalize away their own questionable behavior and thinking. That very much appears to be the case here, as Adam notes in his comment below.

Daniel F

9/4/2022 03:31:33

Quite a bit of the blame for this attitude can be placed at the foot of Romans 13:1-2, which is the "go-to" verse of Christians trying to justify their pusillanimity and conformity in the face of tyrannical government.

In several discussions I had with other Christians about the mandated pecks over the past few years, they almost invariably lean on Romans 13:1-2 as a sort of "mic drop" response, as though that settles the debate.

The tendency to focus on individual verses devoid of context and without analyzing them in the broader context of Jesus' message as a whole usually ends up in some sort of distortion, half-truth or other tendency that is ultimately in the service of evil.

To pull this "all authority is God" argument apart, I would offer the following argument (one among many; I'm just giving it as an example). Our parents are an authority, and indeed we are told to honor our father and mother, yet in another verse, Jesus said that "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, ... he cannot be my disciple." Our final allegiance must be to Jesus (i.e. to Truth), and ANYTHING that would get in the way of the individual conscience concerning truth should not be obeyed. That applies to the authority of family, and it certainly applies to worldly authorities.

(Trusting that one's individual discernment is in alignment with God's will is of course incredibly difficult, and one does not make these decisions lightly, but the overall principle as a core attribute of true Christianity is obvious.)

Failure to see this has led to the current situation where most Christianity is an extension, mouthpiece and enforcer of State power and the mainstream narrative. Romans 13:1-2 has done a lot of damage.

9/4/2022 10:08:00

@ Daniel F - Good comment. I also consider it meaningful that both you and Lady Mermaid have pointed to Romans 13:1-2. I agree. This passage has done lots of damage. It has also inspired a great deal of lazy thinking, passivity, and rationalization. Matthew 16:17-19 is another one of these "doozies".

"Our final allegiance must be to Jesus (i.e. to Truth), and ANYTHING that would get in the way of the individual conscience concerning truth should not be obeyed. That applies to the authority of family, and it certainly applies to worldly authorities."

On point! You and Bruce have both hit the nail on the head here.

Hoyos

9/4/2022 04:57:29

I just went over there and boy are the comments a mess, I almost got involved but quailed maybe I should have.

I would have thought it was obvious that counterfeit authorities exist, illegitimate commands as well, and that you can’t outsource your conscience. I mean it’s all over the bible but I think of Hosea 8:4.

I mean I see the point of obeying commands from legit authorities that may not be perfect but aren’t wrong in essence, like the military. But the military recognises some commands are illegal and must be disobeyed. When I’m at work I’m occasionally asked to do stuff in ways that I think are suboptimal but they’re not morally wrong. So yeah I’ll obey orders, I probably should, but not literally every order..

I mean where did the martyrs come from? We ought to obey God rather than men, it’s right there in Acts.

9/4/2022 10:10:57

@ Hoyos - I worry about this sort of thing a great deal. If conventional/traditional Christians refuse to get a handle on core spiritual matters like this one, they will either be led astray, or they will inevitably make a personal decision to abandon Christ.

Adam Piggott link

9/4/2022 07:22:06

Scoot's article reduces humanity to a bunch of automons that go along to get along, as well as completely negating any concept of free will that God gave us. You can look back at the life of any saint in history and by this standard they would all have been unacceptable to this standard.
It reeks to me of someone who is very uncomfortable with how they have acted over the last two or so years and is desperately trying to rationalise their behavior.

9/4/2022 10:14:52

@ Adam - "It reeks to me of someone who is very uncomfortable with how they have acted over the last two or so years and is desperately trying to rationalise their behavior."

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly, and I made a point of bringing that to the author's attention in my last comment on that thread. It will be interesting to see how he responds, assuming he responds at all.

My main point was that he needed to see his behavior for what it is and repent instead of trying to rationalize and pass the spiritual buck.

9/4/2022 09:36:34

You need to consider what Jesus meant by sin, especially in the fourth gospel (John). Sin means mostly death, but also being turned away from God's purposes. Jesus did not die, and/ because he was fully aligned with God's purposes, therefore he was "free from sin".

Bruce charlton

9/4/2022 09:44:56

The current situation is - it seems - unprecedented in world history. I mean a world and all major institutions aiming purposively and strategically against God and creation (including nature). In other words, the global rule of demonic evil. This ought to be obvious to any Christian, however the institutional churches are included in this strategic evil. Those who refuse to.make personal discernment will therefore be led to obey those who are active agents of the demonic agenda. As we see all around us...

9/4/2022 10:20:44

@ Bruce - "Those who refuse to.make personal discernment will therefore be led to obey those who are active agents of the demonic agenda. As we see all around us..."

This is why I feel it important to keep banging the drum about this. There are simply too many self-professed Christians out there who are either oblivious to or in denial about where they are allowing themselves to be led . . .

The global rule of demonic evil ought to be obvious, but for some "inexplicable" reason or other, it isn't.

William Wildblood

9/4/2022 10:45:17

Children have to obey their parents until they are old enough to work things out for themselves and take personal responsibility. The only point of obedience to outer authority is if you are a spiritual infant. After that you have to obey inner authority which is your own soul with its connection to God. Scoot's article is a recommendation to stay a spiritual baby.

9/4/2022 12:26:26

@ William - I agree. Growing up appears to be very hard for some people.

Genie Hughes

9/4/2022 14:16:02

Oh, thank you for that succinct summary. Perfect.

The Continental Op

9/4/2022 13:15:13

A few thoughts:

Jesus said "all authority on heaven and earth has been given me..." He has full scope. Any earthly authority has delegated authority, and is not full scope. Romans 13 delineates the scope of civil government: to punish the wicked and reward the good. Basically, have laws and punishments for maintaining good order. Christians are to promote good order.

Do people in a Mafia area need to obey the Mafia? Why isn't it a legitimate authority? What about Mexicans with respect to drug cartels?

How is the US government promoting and executing the overthrow of other governments around the world? Is that a legitimage exercise of its authority? If an authority oversteps its God-ordained scope of authority, am I required to obey? It's gotten pretty clear to anyone with eyes to see that our governing authorities have way overstepped their bounds, and are exercising authority they do not have. Sure, they can try, and often get away with it, because they have power. But is that authority? I'm still required to obey them in all things?

Who exactly is Paul referring to in Ephesians 6:12 when he says "For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places." Wait, I'm wrestling *against* rulers and authorities and cosmic powers?? By obeying them, right?

No one has ever explained to me how the USA, born in rebellion to the established authority, is therefore legitimate authority. A bunch of guys lead a secession, and that's totally legitimate then? If not, what is our status today?

The man who wrote Romans 13 was executed for not obeying the civil authority. Jesus was executed for not obeying the religious authority.

9/4/2022 18:01:43

@ The Continental Op - Yes, distinctions between authority and power are required. The two are not necessarily synonymous. After that, distinctions need to be made regarding the nature of said power or authority.

9/4/2022 14:04:38

I thought your comments on his post, especially about asking for forgiveness, were spot on. I would add that he should also ask for forgiveness for implying others should bend the knee - or, more on point, roll up the sleeve and bare the arm - to be a good Christian. I would have given more thought to his premise if he'd left out his forced submission, which seems like a way to elevate his 'choice' into something sacred. If he can get that far, he might also want to ask forgiveness for becoming an extension of authority and adding pressure to those who are trying to follow God's will for their lives. I had the same reaction to the Orthodox writer and her incredibly sanctimonious justification post that it was God's will that the aborted baby's cells were used for good to protect her health.
It threw me for a minute, because I've always liked her, but I came to the realization that I was putting too much stock in the opinions of humans , subrogating my own responsibility to look at things deeply and seek answers in scripture. Hmm. Perhaps I am too hard on Scoot. Maybe his writing will be used to help me to pick the right fork in the road by seeing illegal authority clearly and turning the other way. Thanks for the post and the link. Quite thought provoking.

9/4/2022 18:12:04

@ Genie - Thanks. For me, blogging has become a way of spiritual learning, which entails that I must be willing to have my views, beliefs, and assumptions questioned and/or challenged. Hence, I must be able to explain or defend the views, thoughts, and assumptions I share. I also must be willing to admit when I may be wrong, misguided, ignorant, or muddled. If I am unwilling to do that, I will not learn. Hopefully Scoot has a similar approach to blogging. If he does, his post can serve a positive purpose.

JMSmith link

9/4/2022 19:19:35

I'm reading Revelation and fear that Apollyon, the demon of destruction, has decided to destroy the Orthosphere. Things are "coming to a point" even there. I had hoped we might put the apple cart back on its wheels and restore the old spirit of ecumenical charity, but the authoritarians apparently want to double down. They tell me that I cannot be a Christian if I do not go to church. I have found I cannot be a Christian if I do.

9/4/2022 20:53:41

@ JM - I can relate. No need to be glum. I attend the RC church in my village regularly. My son even serves as an altar boy. None of that spared me from being called an enemy of Christianity.

In my humble opinion, Christians should strive to establish spiritual harmony based on freedom and unity in love. I'm not sure why it tends to fall apart in the end, but I think it might have something to do with the lack of a common goal that extends beyond mutual respect and charity. The harmony and unity needs something to work toward. I'm not referring to anything like a unified church, but rather to something far more creative.

When I imagine heaven, I envision it as a kind of sobornost where everyone retains their individuality but works together in relationships to achieve unique yet common creative purposes.

9/4/2022 23:40:09

I think this is a time of increasing spiritual refinement. It's not enough to be religious or to be a Christian. We have to show we respond to the voice of the Holy Spirit within us. This may mean being rejected by the world both in its material and in its spiritual form. But that is our task now and we must do it with a light heart because we are being tested in the refiner's fire for great work ahead.

dave sora

9/5/2022 00:06:22

Catholics need Jesus to have not been sacrastic about the Pharisees sitting in Moses' seat so they can argue their priests truly sit in Peter's seat. But that do3sn't even follow. The non-sarcasm interpretation is taken to its true conclusion by Hebrew Roots types and Messianic Jews who argue that since Jesus was non-sarcastic when he said to obey the Pharisess (in their view) and since the Talmudic rabbis are the continuation of the Phariseea, ThEreFoRE Messianics must obey the Talmud! This is where inability to see sarcasm in the text leads.

9/5/2022 13:55:58

Yes, taking as straight what Jesus said there about the Pharisees sitting in Moses' seat contradicts other things Jesus said; such as:

" And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ But you say, ‘If a man tells his father or his mother, “Whatever you would have gained from me is Corban”’ (that is, given to God)—then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother, thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.” (Mark 7)

If you followed what they *said*, you, too, would make void the word of God.

Also, in the sermon on the mount, Jesus several times quotes the current teachings, "you have heard it said", and he corrects them with "but I say to you".

Much of what Jesus taught was to correct all the ways the Pharisees had things wrong.

Kristor

9/8/2022 05:25:07

<blockquote><blockquote>The thing that it is hard for us to understand about Omnipotence and his Providence is that *even the evil that evil men do* redounds at last to our all joint and universal salvation. All that we need do to take advantage of this fact is to ally ourselves to that salvation. How? Dunno. Just do it. Get on with it, in fear and trembling, lest you muck it up by your own foolishness.</blockquote>

He’s right. That is difficult to understand.</blockquote>

Omnipotence is indeed difficult to understand, especially under the terms of any lesser logistical calculus. It is not surprising that you find it difficult. So do I. I at least take the notion seriously, so that I *try* to understand it, and have therefore evidently understood more about it than you.

On the topic of obedience to authority, here is what Omnipotence has to say, by way of his ministers the Apostles:

<blockquote>1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6For this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
.
Romans 13:1-7</blockquote>

<blockquote>13Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; 14or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. 15For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: 16As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. 17Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

18Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. 19For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. 20For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? But if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

I Peter 2:13-20</blockquote>

Parse away, and good luck to you, with all God’s blessings.

This is not – duh – to suggest that we should never resist the authorities, when, e.g., they require us to lie or to do evil, or have revealed themselves as servants of the Enemy. Nor is it to suggest – duh – that we should ever recuse ourselves from our plain simple duty – indeed, our most basic function as minds (that simply *cannot* be abandoned, so long as we remain minds) – to discern whether what the authorities (or their adversaries, or the demons, or ourselves, or any other causal input whatever) enjoin us to do in this present moment is false or evil. To suggest that it is is to set up a straw man whom you may then easily strike down. For all the specious good that such a thing will do for you. Only a fool would counsel the abandonment of discernment; and no fool at the Orthosphere has ever done so, to my knowledge. Which after all, in respect to the Orthosphere at least, is comprehensive.

Honestly. Let’s be careful here. And, so – as the aetymology of “care” suggests – to be charitable.

Go ahead, then. Parse away. How do you reconcile your avowed rebellion against the Church, and against the whole of the Christian Tradition, with the scriptures I have noticed?

Bear in mind, as you answer – if so you choose to do – that there is a difference between rebellion against authority and reproval thereof, or resistance thereto. I reproach Pope Francis, e.g., and resist his pastoral dictates; but I don’t rebel against the Church, or against his office therein. Despite his manifold pastoral enormities, he has not yet (as you – I am sorry to say – have certainly done) so far suggested to me that I should reject a jot of the orthodox dogma received from our Lord and from his Apostles. The moment that he does such a thing, *he will himself rebel against the authority proper to his office.* As you have done to yours as a layman and so a priest of Melchizedek! And that will be pretty obvi

9/8/2022 12:55:46

@ Kristor - I'll respond in greater detail in a bit, but for the time being, I'll say this much -- the overwhelmingly negative response to that post -- both here and at the Orthosphere -- pretty much speaks for itself.

Please note, mine was not the only critical voice. The post also drew plenty of criticism from conventional/traditional Christians . . . so something is definitely up.

Kristor link

9/8/2022 21:29:34

It is indeed a most difficult problem to parse, from either side. No question about that. But the Apostolic passages I have adduced make it necessary to undertake that untangling.

I am not impressed that lots of people - especially Anglo-American types - bristle at any talk of bending the knee. That lots of people believe x is true does not make x true.

What bugs me about the discussion of Scoot's post is not that it is controversial, but that it got people so riled up. I have not read the comments carefully - just scanned the headlines of most of them, as it were - because I've been especially busy in real life the last week. Plus I'm just not that interested in this topic, in and of itself. So I view the parsing of it as a bit of a philosophical chore, not rewarding in itself, but something of a duty (especially since I was the one who kicked Scoot's essay into the hornet's nest). Obedience has been considered a Christian virtue from the beginning of Christianity. It behooves us then to get it right in practice. So that it is easier for us to discern when it is not vicious to disobey, e.g.

I have some thoughts about how to proceed with an analysis and then a synthesis that I tend to think might be agreeable to both sides of the debate. But before I do that, I want to review what Aquinas had to say about it. That might save me a lot of time! Unfortunately, I won't have time even for that for at least a week, I'm guessing. By which time, the whole controversy might have settled down into pacific clarity, like a muddy pool left alone.

9/8/2022 22:22:17

@ Kristor - I'll respond my playing passage ping-pong. I return your Romans 13 with Acts 5:29.

You see, I am not against obedience per se, and I am most certainly not against obedience to God. What worries me is this -- Romans 13 works if the underlying conditions are in place, such as those outlined in Catechism 1897-1927. Unfortunately, those conditions are not in place. On the contrary, our world is now as Bruce describes it above:

"The current situation is - it seems - unprecedented in world history. I mean a world and all major institutions aiming purposively and strategically against God and creation (including nature). In other words, the global rule of demonic evil. This ought to be obvious to any Christian, however the institutional churches are included in this strategic evil. Those who refuse to.make personal discernment will therefore be led to obey those who are active agents of the demonic agenda. As we see all around us.."

As Catechism 2242 makes perfectly clear: "The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel. Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." "We must obey God rather than men":

When citizens are under the oppression of a public authority which oversteps its competence, they should still not refuse to give or to do what is objectively demanded of them by the common good; but it is legitimate for them to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens against the abuse of this authority within the limits of the natural law and the Law of the Gospel."

To the point of armed resistance (under certain conditions)!

The matter of conscience -- as outlined in Catechism 1776-1802 is of particular interest to me. In matters of obedience, conscience is crucial! The aboriginal Vicar of Christ is primary here!

I don't mean to presume, but I ask that you review this comment by Scoot:

https://orthosphere.wordpress.com/2022/09/02/bend-the-knee-to-an-unjust-king/#comment-163744

And my response:

https://orthosphere.wordpress.com/2022/09/02/bend-the-knee-to-an-unjust-king/#comment-163761

I was assuming, so my I couldn't know the exact reasons for his "moment of conscience", but it was clearly there. Scoot responded in the following manner:

https://orthosphere.wordpress.com/2022/09/02/bend-the-knee-to-an-unjust-king/#comment-163845

Do you see my concern? This fellow's conscience told him something, and he wanted to follow it. He made a noble attempt to follow his conscience by appealing to his priest, who -- predictably enough -- turned him down. After being turned down, Scoot went against his conscience and went into obedience mode. Moreover, he feels he has done absolutely nothing wrong and has no reason to repent. This is dangerous territory, especially in light of our current circumstances. I am sincerely concerned about this man's soul.

Look, I know you think Bruce and I are enemies of Christianity and heretics and all that, but I think we offer some valuable insights that trads would be foolish to ignore - primarily when it comes to matters of personal discernment, obedience, and repentance -- matters that tradition also confirm and support.

My biggest "beef" with tradition, scripture, doctrine, omnipotence, etc. is this -- I fear many Christians use these things to rationalize disobeying their conscience/personal discernment, to relieve themselves of personal responsibility, or to justify their complicity with the System. That may sound harsh, but I see it everywhere, and it concerns me deeply. Moreover, I see it as an abuse of tradition, so it should concern trads as well.

Obeying God cannot be limited to externals. The internal matters -- and it matters a great deal more than many Christians are willing to admit.

I humbly suggest you review the Catechism on Authority and Conscience.

9/9/2022 00:50:37

The Catechism will be an excellent place to start, thanks; great idea. The footnotes will zoom me to the right passages of STA!

lea

9/9/2022 06:17:39

There is no playing nice about what happened in the last 2.5 years. Evil took the gloves off, even if it looks subtle and not that impactful to people that were on constant snooze and autopilot in life thus far. The implications of it all are astounding; not only can large portions of humanity be steered; the ones that presume to be in control of this process are robots as well! It is truly a sad real life translation of the Borg idea from STNG with even less creativity implied.

Regardless of affiliation, history, spiritual inclination, or lack of that, why is it difficult for people to choose life and creation over this weird and very vaguely described technocratic utopia that is presented currently?

I don't get it at all. Is the whole scam running through a fear of death? I suppose that might be the case but did that stop and jam up civilization in the past? Not quite.

Authority has to be earned. God does that automatically, any source that requests or even demands it, presents itself as a proxy, should be questioned at the very least.

And i think that's the discernment Francis keeps mentioning; developing internal guidelines for life that feel right, and sticking to them. Consistency is better than guidance, unless you are very lost.

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Being a Good Christian Entails Obeying All Authority, Including Evil Authority

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